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EX-CIA: Yes well, as you get older and older, you can’t live forever you know. So if this, uh, procedure I’m gonna have to clean the blood doesn’t work, then I’ve got probably a few more months to make it, before my kidneys shut down. So that’s kinda why, I’m kinda going along with the interview.
DOLAN: You’re seeing that what you went through is too important for people not to know about
EX-CIA: Yes.
DOLAN: Can you just, can we just start at the beginning, at your military career and can you just walk me through what exactly your experiences were?
EX-CIA: Was in uh, drafted into the military, and got into the US army, after that I was sent to the signal training center in the eastern United States.
DOLAN: What was the year of this date?
EX-CIA: 58, I went through the signal training core and at that time I went through the radio teletype course and the cryptography course, they had five instructors that were getting uh, military service, so they pulled the top five students and I was third in the class, so I got pulled as an instructor.
DOLAN: And were you at this time, also working yet for the CIA?
EX-CIA: No.
DOLAN: Not yet.
EX-CIA: after one day my boss and he, and he uh, said uh, how would you like to you know, make some extra money, and I said oh, money is good.
DOLAN: Mm, mm, mm
EX-CIA: So he explained to me that he could put a turn lock, but I have to get uh, top secret, white house cued clearance for the job you know, and I thought boy, must be pretty an exclusive thing, and I said well, what is this, and he said, that I’m director for the Cia for eastern united states, and I said well I didn’t know that, and he said well, you weren’t supposed to.
DOLAN: Mm, Mm, Mm
EX-CIA: after about six weeks, my security clearance came through and I got my CIA card, it was an id card like a credit card where I could just go up to the door and slide it and walk right in, and I uh.. Name at that I used, artificial name too, never used my real name. I started working with him, on the project he was on, and that was the project bluebook, which was kind of partially a fraud.
DOLAN: You’re saying that some of the Bluebook cases were completely-
EX-CIA: Yes.
DOLAN: completely fictitious?
EX-CIA: Yes… But the cases that we got came from I think it was fort Bellview er… it was
DOLAN: Fort Belvoir?
EX-CIA: Yeah, it was, it didn’t come from the, or didn’t come from CIA headquarters. But we would keep reports of all the certain sighting at the… Mexico, or Italy, or something like that, and then we would have to, we had people who would follow through on it, who would go out and interview the people to see if they were nutcases or if it was real.
DOLAN: They’d be going overseas pretty frequently?
EX-CIA: I wasn’t sent, I always statewide, but uh, the people we had working with us, in the CIA would do that, we would get like a new report probably a couple times a week. I was coming into the army fresh off the farm you know, so I really didn’t have much knowledge of anything, but my boss filled me in project blue book and what they had found so far. As far as uh, greys and aliens and the Roswell incident.
DOLAN: How does you feel when this first got dumped on… when you first learned about this?
EX-CIA: Well I was first just kinda overwhelmed with all of this, and I said, I don’t know if I’m gonna be able to be a judge of this type of thing, what’s real what’s not, when I don’t have much knowledge of it you know.
DOLAN: What did he say?
EX-CIA: he said, well we’ll have to build the information as we go and you’ll see how this thing is working out.
DOLAN: And the other thing is, of course the other thing is that you weren’t really able to tell Emily or close friends, obviously
EX-CIA:No, I couldn’t tell anybody, fact that I had to take a vow that I wouldn’t tell anybody, a lot of it for, forty years, and more of it for fifty years, was just up in…
DOLAN: You’re doing all this crypto work, you’re looking at images, photographs, video, it’s 1958, maybe the fall of 58. What happened after this?
EX-CIA: At that time, the project blue book thing, kinda went poch you know, if you remember back in those days, they kinda declared it as a nothing you know, and uh.
DOLAN: They were telling the world all UFO’s are misidentifications,
EX-CIA: Hoaxes, balloons
DOLAN: Psychological issues, whatever
EX-CIA: Yes, so my boss came to me and he said, we’ve got a new assignment, and I said well where we are going. Oh he said, we’re going to the capital, we’re going to part of the Eisenhower push trying to find out something about all about these aliens that MJ12 was supposed to find out, but never did, never sent back reports to him.
DOLAN: MJ12, the UFO control group was, were they calling MJ12 at that time.
EX-CIA: Yes, They called us into the oval office and Eisenhower was there, and Nixon, and they said uh, we called the people in for MJ12 from area 51 and they told us the government had no jurisdiction over what they were doing, so being a general, past general, he didn’t tell them to go to hell without any good reason, so he said, uh, I want you to and your boss to fly out there, I want you to give them a personal message, he says, we should tell whoever is in charge, tell them that, to give in they have this week, this coming week, to get into Washington, and to report to me, and if they don’t, I’m gonna get the first army from Colorado and we’re gonna go over and take the base over, I don’t care what kinda classified material you got, we’re gonna rip this thing apart.
DOLAN: Eisenhower was going to invade.
EX-CIA: Yes
DOLAN: Area 51
EX-CIA: Yeah, with the first army
DOLAN: So you go out with your… superior-
EX-CIA: Yes.
DOLAN: You fly out and what happened, can you describe this whole process, what you saw.
EX-CIA: They took us thirteen or fifteen miles south to S4 and through different garage door openings, in these garage door openings they had like different saucer crafts, the very first one had, a, the uh, Roswell craft in, and it was kinda crashed up, but apparently every alien that was in that died except for a couple.
DOLAN: You saw the Roswell craft, and what are some others that you’ve seen?
EX-CIA: Well, the Roswell craft was really strange because it looked like real heavy aluminum foil. When you walked next to it and you could rock the whole thing probably, one hundred and fifty, three pounds.
DOLAN: Could they tell what the source of power was of this ship
EX-CIA: Yeah it was like a, rivers, gravitational thing of some kind, in fact one, later on, I got, I got the… The uh, mathematical code for reversing gravity in a 3 by 5 car, I guess there are different types of greys and so on.
DOLAN: How did you see that evidence?
EX-CIA: Well, at the uh, later on, at the S4, we viewed the autopsy film and then the colonel said what we’ve got in here is real remains of a grey alien.
DOLAN: Okay, right there, how did you feel, at that moment?’
EX-CIA: Well I thought boy, we had no idea we were gonna see the real thing, all we saw was film.
DOLAN: You had to have a little bit of heart racing at that moment.
EX-CIA: Yes, my boss was able to go and they had a, like a partial interview.
DOLAN: What did this grey alien look like, can you describe them?
EX-CIA: This one looked little bit oriental.
DOLAN: So, I’m just wondering, if it looked almost human, what about this didn’t look human.
EX-CIA: Well it didn’t look human as far as the skin tone, and basically the shape of it and the size.
DOLAN: How was the head size compared to a normal human for example?
EX-CIA: Uh, brain was kind of, a little bit bigger, and some of the nose was very, very small, and the ears were just like holes, mouth was very small.
DOLAN: now why were they bringing you out here at all anyway, to see an alien, what was the point?
EX-CIA: To go back and tell the president they actually had one.
DOLAN: So he did not know at this point if there was an alien at S4
EX-CIA: No.
DOLAN: What did you do then, were you done, or did you have other things to do.
EX-CIA: Yeah we were basically done, went back to Area 51, they took us into the main building and there we saw a U2 which of course we didn’t know existed. And he uh, a model of the sr7
DOLAN: The blackbird
EX-CIA: So, but like I mentioned earlier, was not on my level, the blackbird.
DOLAN: The earlier version.
EX-CIA: The early version.
DOLAN: Did you go back to Washington?
EX-CIA: Yes.
DOLAN: How did you get there, did you fly a regular airline.
EX-CIA: We flew back, to uh, a commuter plane back to the airbase, and then took President Eisenhower Electra back to Washington
DOLAN: You and your supervisor, superior officer, and you’re taking the president.
EX-CIA: Yes.
DOLAN: Can you describe this?
EX-CIA: Well, we met with him at the second story of the SS. Warehouse building, and uh, Eisenhower and Nixon were there, and uh, also, hoover was there. So he asked what was going on, and we told him about the alien whole situation and the uh, black projects and so on. He was just totally shocked, he appeared for the first time to be worried. You know, like he was worried
DOLAN: I would think that Eisenhower certainly knew that, flying saucers were real, he knew that aliens were real.
EX-CIA: Yes.
DOLAN: So I guess I’m just wondering you know, what he would have been surprised about.
EX-CIA: uh, surprised about the black programs, Eisenhower said, gotta keep this thing completely secret, you know, can’t talk about this.
DOLAN: Your actual name is, I mean the name you grew up with was a different name than you used.
EX-CIA: Yes, I never used it with the CIA at all.
DOLAN: Now, what about today, you’re going on the public record, and this is still sensitive information, even though earlier, you talked about oaths that maybe expire after a certain period of time.
EX-CIA: fifty years.
DOLAN: But you’re still concerned.
EX-CIA: Well, one in house phone call, her phone was tapped, and they got my telephone number, and through the telephone company they were able to find me and so on.
DOLAN: What happened when they found you?
EX-CIA: I was going to a grocery store, guys in a, black suits come on up a black Lincoln, and came over to see me, and told me that I’d better not publish anything, or talk to Linda about any more things, so at that time, I did you know, I stopped.
DOLAN: That was enough to intimidate you?
EX-CIA: Rather to remain anonymous, never show my face.
DOLAN: Really thank you for doing this.
EX-CIA: Yes, this was, I guess kind of a good idea because I feel much better having talked about it. I kinda feel like there’s a load off my shoulders.
DOLAN: Really
EX-CIA: Because hiding an awful lot of secrets that I kept over the years.
